Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

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ToraKitsune
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Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Thu May 23, 2013 3:48 pm

O.K., here's the deal....

I installed the Eagle 1.60 CS kit in my VDF, and it appears to have little drift angle. As a 50/50 drifter, it had more angle than it does now.

So, without spending tons more money on parts, how do I increase the angle?

Chassis set-up:

LRP Spin Super/17.5T LRP Vector set at full-power.
Spektrum S6070 servo
Spektrum DX3R

Stock 4 degree caster hubs
Stock steering assembly
Camber set at 4 degrees front, 5 degrees rear
1 degree toe in front, three degrees rear
HPI A-Drift tires (seem to work best on surface I'm currently running on)
Full inside camber link position, front and rear
Inside camber link position on rear uprights
Flex has been "engineered" into chassis by loosening upper bolts on rear upper carbon stays, lower bolts completely removed
3/4 oz weight placed in front of motor, on lower carbon plate
4mm ride height front (no droop), 7mm rear (also no droop)
Everything else stock set up

If I missed anything, let me know.

I will purchase extra parts that may be required, but only if all else fails, or it is absolutely necessary, otherwise, I would like to keep things close to stock, and try adjustments first.

Any help with this is much appreciated.
Last edited by ToraKitsune on Thu May 23, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby Gaelen » Thu May 23, 2013 4:27 pm

I dont have a VDF but generally the place to sart is to figure out what's your limiting factor.

For me it was my bump stops on my SPrint 2 and after removing those I got a lot more lock, then it was my CVD's that started binding

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Thu May 23, 2013 5:02 pm

Steer angle not the problem.....I actually increased it a bit, by dremeling the stops down on the knuckles.

I can't get the chassis to even get to where the stops used to be.

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby Stalwart » Fri May 24, 2013 12:46 am

Knuckles or knuckle extensions. I have Active STR092-4 with stock knuckles on my VDF

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby Davis » Fri May 24, 2013 1:24 am

You´re talking about the rear not kicking out enough anymore?

Setup wise the shocksprings are the usual suspects to look for first, put some stiffer springs in the rear and it will come around much harder.

But those A drift tires are also not a very good choice, much too grippy. - I don´t know the surface you are running on though.

And then there is technique. If you are used to 50/50 drifting you might countersteer too much, so that the car straightens out again. Finding the point of throttle and steering, where you can hold a cs drift with a nice angle takes some practice. ;)

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Fri May 24, 2013 9:38 am

Davis wrote:You´re talking about the rear not kicking out enough anymore?

Setup wise the shocksprings are the usual suspects to look for first, put some stiffer springs in the rear and it will come around much harder.

But those A drift tires are also not a very good choice, much too grippy. - I don´t know the surface you are running on though.

And then there is technique. If you are used to 50/50 drifting you might countersteer too much, so that the car straightens out again. Finding the point of throttle and steering, where you can hold a cs drift with a nice angle takes some practice. ;)


Yes, rear not kicking out far enough.....

Those A-drifts work where I run, mainly my garage floor. I have tried Raikous, and all of them are much too slick. They have very little control, and are sloooooow (though they work flawlessly anywhere else). The A-drifts don't wear on my garage floor (tells you how smooth it is!), and "seem" to have the best response. I replaced the springs with stiffer ones, and still no bueno....

I think I have the CS technique down - turn into the drift more, the drift widens. The problem I have is, the chassis isn't swinging out very far (compared to when it was 50/50), and any input (however small) to steer into the drift immediately straightens the chassis, since the rear end wasn't kicked out that far, to begin with. I see vids with CS drifters with massive drift angle, front wheels almost to lock, and just don't know how to get my VDF even halfway to what I see in those vids......:(

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby Stalwart » Sat May 25, 2013 2:24 am

My bad, i didn't understand the original question. Get HPI T-Drift tires, they're great on pretty much every surface

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby STEVE TC5R » Sat May 25, 2013 5:46 am

Please tell us the following so we can help:
1)shock oil and springs
2)rear toe+front toe
3)shock position
4)ride height
5)ackermann

And in my opinion you really need to let the car have droop so it is easier to start a drift when you let go throttle

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Sat May 25, 2013 11:44 am

Stalwart wrote:My bad, i didn't understand the original question. Get HPI T-Drift tires, they're great on pretty much every surface

Tried them....they're as bad (at least on my garage floor) as all the other types I've tried, but I am willing to try them again, with some adjustments/recommendations you guys have!

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Sat May 25, 2013 11:51 am

STEVE TC5R wrote:Please tell us the following so we can help:
1)shock oil and springs
2)rear toe+front toe
3)shock position
4)ride height
5)ackermann

And in my opinion you really need to let the car have droop so it is easier to start a drift when you let go throttle



Shock oil: 35 wt. all around.
Rear toe: In, 3 degrees. Front toe: In, 1 degree.
Shock position: Front - outer position on arms, inside position on shock tower. Rear - inside position on arms, outermost on shock tower.
Springs: Unknown, but rears correspond to Tamiya "blue" spring rate. Fronts are Tamiya chrome springs that correspond to Tamiya "red" spring rate.
Ride height: 4mm front, 7mm rear.
Ackerman: The steering is bone-stock, so whatever Ackerman there may be, is still there.

I tried some droop in the rear, with no appreciable results, but am willing to adjust it in, if recommendations begin to show some effect. Thus far, all my attempts have failed. I just don't know what I may be doing wrong......

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby STEVE TC5R » Sat May 25, 2013 1:18 pm

i had the same problem with you and the guys here helped me a lot.so here are my recommendations:
1)if you can reduce rear toe to 1d or 1.5d.1d is enough for stability but in my opinion at 60% that you are now 3d toe is more than needed.i know this is the manufacturer's toe but i would like you to start from there
2)move away all 4 shocks from the wheels but keep them vertical as possible
3)put your softest spring in the front and slightly harder in the rear-keep your oil
4)start with 3d camber front-1d rear
5)remove droop screws front and rear-
6)set your front ride height at 2mm(resting ride-height).set the rear to 6mm
7)Try to have zero ackermann-this really helps to maintain the drift

I am no expert but i will tell you stg:
Try and have a soft suspension setting in general.You achieve two things when you do that
First you reduce the pull from one-way and second.you give more traction to the rear.

You really need to adopt your driving style to cs.let front wheels roll and the rears spinning-this is your goal.by doing that you let the overdrive do its job and give you the angle you need.

I was at 2.5cs and i couldn't hold the angle even a little bit.now i am at 87% with 45-50 degrees lock.i am still learning just as you-these tips helped me a ton
I hope i helped

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Sat May 25, 2013 2:59 pm

STEVE TC5R wrote:i had the same problem with you and the guys here helped me a lot.so here are my recommendations:
1)if you can reduce rear toe to 1d or 1.5d.1d is enough for stability but in my opinion at 60% that you are now 3d toe is more than needed.i know this is the manufacturer's toe but i would like you to start from there
2)move away all 4 shocks from the wheels but keep them vertical as possible
3)put your softest spring in the front and slightly harder in the rear-keep your oil
4)start with 3d camber front-1d rear
5)remove droop screws front and rear-
6)set your front ride height at 2mm(resting ride-height).set the rear to 6mm
7)Try to have zero ackermann-this really helps to maintain the drift

I am no expert but i will tell you stg:
Try and have a soft suspension setting in general.You achieve two things when you do that
First you reduce the pull from one-way and second.you give more traction to the rear.

You really need to adopt your driving style to cs.let front wheels roll and the rears spinning-this is your goal.by doing that you let the overdrive do its job and give you the angle you need.

I was at 2.5cs and i couldn't hold the angle even a little bit.now i am at 87% with 45-50 degrees lock.i am still learning just as you-these tips helped me a ton
I hope i helped



I will give your recommendations a try, as I'm new to CS, and though I am versed and accomplished in 50/50 enough to tandem, I have enough understanding of the principle of CS, but the adjustments are what's the difficulty here, I think. I have no other rear uprights, so will have to order. Now that it's mentioned, it makes sense to reduce the toe in the rear.
I will post results when I get them........

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Sat May 25, 2013 4:18 pm

I was able to locate a 1A pivot block, so now I have "0" toe in the rear. Also backed out all droop screws and reset ride height to recommended heights and relocated the shock mounts - upright rear, and as upright as I could get them, front.....out for testing now...... :)

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Sat May 25, 2013 5:36 pm

O.K., findings thus far.....

I have gained a small amount of angle with the recommendations STEVE TC5R gave, then.....Swapped out the A-Drifts for Raikou D68's. While they were PAINFULLY slow on the garage floor, with VERRRRRYY little speed gain, I did notice something:

The "swing out" was easier to manage (still less than I would like though), with less-grippy tires. While the D68's are much too slow for now, I will go with Stalwart's suggestion of T-drifts. I have used them before (the slicks and treaded ones), and they also work well in my garage, so hopefully, they will have a better grip/slip ratio than the A-drifts.

Any other suggestions to improve drift angle at this point will be greatly appreciated. I am open to almost anything, at this point, knowing at least I'm heading in the right direction! :)

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Sat May 25, 2013 8:47 pm

Alright.....Here are some impressions......

I need a larger area. More speed. It became clearly obvious there isn't enough room in my garage for the speed necessary to get a decent drift angle. I had some rugs piled on one side of the garage, and used them as a "backstop" of sorts, and saw that I get approx. 40 degrees before the chassis hits the rugs. This is in a wide arc, but after numerous attempts, it's clear there just wasn't enough speed and room to complete a drift with a decent angle. I am also now using some Yeah racing 3 degree tires, which are very close to Raikou DXPE's in function and grip / slip ratio.

Now, the question is, how can I get more angle, with this new info? Would going to a higher ratio help? Say....1.90?

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby STEVE TC5R » Sun May 26, 2013 1:50 am

I am at 87% and i am going to stick with that.there are so many things you could change to make the rear kick-out more.stick with one percentage and learn with it.now i don't like people getting tired and search for a year so i am going to tell you one thing if you increase it don't go further 90 0r 100 at the most.whatever you choose stick with it and adopt your car.if you have some angle now try and reduce front ride height more move your rear to 8mm.do this first and if this doesn't change anything put a harder spring in the rear and try again
Now some recommendations for your driving:
1)Be gentle with throttle.we don't need speed for drifting.reduce your gearing so you have better control.speed or no speed,if setup is wrong you will not drift at all
2)forget 50-50 driving,this is something new.You must 'play' with on throttle-off-throttle at the same time to keep a drift.do not force the car to drift.let it slide smoothly and see what it needs
3)see how much angle these guys have and how controllable their cars are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGRBUrFZmKc

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Sun May 26, 2013 9:32 am

STEVE TC5R wrote:I am at 87% and i am going to stick with that.there are so many things you could change to make the rear kick-out more.stick with one percentage and learn with it.now i don't like people getting tired and search for a year so i am going to tell you one thing if you increase it don't go further 90 0r 100 at the most.whatever you choose stick with it and adopt your car.if you have some angle now try and reduce front ride height more move your rear to 8mm.do this first and if this doesn't change anything put a harder spring in the rear and try again
Now some recommendations for your driving:
1)Be gentle with throttle.we don't need speed for drifting.reduce your gearing so you have better control.speed or no speed,if setup is wrong you will not drift at all
2)forget 50-50 driving,this is something new.You must 'play' with on throttle-off-throttle at the same time to keep a drift.do not force the car to drift.let it slide smoothly and see what it needs
3)see how much angle these guys have and how controllable their cars are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGRBUrFZmKc


O.K., will stick with 1.60, and am still trying to find the "sweet spot" for this chassis..... I realize CS is nothing like 50/50, the general principles are near diametrically opposed. I am versed with TC grip racing, and to convert my thinking is a bit difficult....I usually know what a chassis requires, but in this instance, I "think" I've narrowed it down to chassis balance. I don't "force" drifts, btw....
The speeds in the vid are all faster than I can get in my garage....So it sort of confirms my suspicions about that, though I still have trouble keeping an angle, so it continues..... :)

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby tatmanfish » Sun May 26, 2013 3:36 pm

Its all setup. I have a vdf csed 2.45.

Weight the front bumper. It allows the front to anchor more and the rear will kick out easier. The rest is shock positions, oil weight, and spring rate. Ive noticed a lot of vdf setups are stiffer in the front and more vertically mounted, and softer is the rear with more angle to the shock position. Shock setup is largely based on driving style, but just startwhere your at and slowly adjust your shock position one mounting point at a time. It will either get better or worse and then adjust accordingly. Start with just the rear first until it getscloser to how you want it and then the front.

I personally run low weight oils and soft springs with my font being slightly more stiff than the rear. Adding front weight makes a big difference as well.

Speed isnt exactly what youre looking for. Cs cars are generally slower than 50/50, but you actually have counter steer and more realistic handling. Thats the trade off. You want to power slide or do you want to drift?

A-type tire are meant more for nitro cars. More grip means your rear end isnt going to break loose or kick around as easy.

As far as angle, theres only so much you can get while being in a counter steer. I have around 55 degrees of stering and raely hit full lock. Hitting full lock prevents you from having that little bit left to initiate a switchback. Then your car unders teers and its almost impossible to get the weight to swing back the other way.

You can get geater angle but it becomes more of a power slide and you lose momentum as where with a 50/50 car it can be at a 90 degree angle for longer periods because all 4 tires are spinning equally.

Imo it sound like youre trying to get speed and angle of a 50/50 which just isnt realistic. Imo its not even drifting if you arent countersteering.

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Sun May 26, 2013 5:07 pm

tatmanfish wrote:Its all setup. I have a vdf csed 2.45.

Weight the front bumper. It allows the front to anchor more and the rear will kick out easier. The rest is shock positions, oil weight, and spring rate. Ive noticed a lot of vdf setups are stiffer in the front and more vertically mounted, and softer is the rear with more angle to the shock position. Shock setup is largely based on driving style, but just startwhere your at and slowly adjust your shock position one mounting point at a time. It will either get better or worse and then adjust accordingly. Start with just the rear first until it getscloser to how you want it and then the front.

I personally run low weight oils and soft springs with my font being slightly more stiff than the rear. Adding front weight makes a big difference as well.

Speed isnt exactly what youre looking for. Cs cars are generally slower than 50/50, but you actually have counter steer and more realistic handling. Thats the trade off. You want to power slide or do you want to drift?

A-type tire are meant more for nitro cars. More grip means your rear end isnt going to break loose or kick around as easy.

As far as angle, theres only so much you can get while being in a counter steer. I have around 55 degrees of stering and raely hit full lock. Hitting full lock prevents you from having that little bit left to initiate a switchback. Then your car unders teers and its almost impossible to get the weight to swing back the other way.

You can get geater angle but it becomes more of a power slide and you lose momentum as where with a 50/50 car it can be at a 90 degree angle for longer periods because all 4 tires are spinning equally.

Imo it sound like youre trying to get speed and angle of a 50/50 which just isnt realistic. Imo its not even drifting if you arent countersteering.


Points taken, but my problem now is.....

I am no longer using A-drifts (my garage floor is extremely slick and smooth, A-drifts work best with 50/50), but Yeah racing 3 degree drifts, which have improved the "attitude" of the chassis some (Raikou D68's are too hard - no bite at all, like it's skating on ice - the Yeah's are very close to DXPE's), but it's still not anywhere near what I've seen CS drifters do. That's the issue. As soon as I begin to countersteer, the chassis straightens right up. There isn't much in the way of a drift, at all. I weighted the front and rear, respectively, with no appreciable results. I have adjusted the suspension to where the front is soft, 2mm ride height (any lower, and it's scraping the floor) with rear set at 7mm with stiff springs. I even lowered it's FDR, and nothing. It's perplexing.

I've started from a dead stop, then run donuts, then slowly work it out of the "spin," but well within the first revolution, it's straightened itself out. This is with VERY little steering input. Essentially, as soon as I get it to go sideways, no matter what I do, it wants to straighten out. *-|

So you're saying to somewhat "reverse" what I have now, with suspension, with the weight? I will give anything a try, since what I have now is absolutely unacceptable. I'll try it, and post results.

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Sun May 26, 2013 6:49 pm

Latest results.....

It's getting better! Thank You, tatmanfish! :)
Current set up:

Ride height: 3mm front, 7mm rear
Shock position/locations: Front-full in, lower, full outer, upper. Rear-full in, lower, third hole from outer, upper
Medium springs front, medium-soft rear.
Full droop (ride heights set by spring adjustment only)
1 1/2 oz lead weight placed on front bumper
All other adjustments same as last specified.

The chassis is now more controllable, in that it is not as "twitchy" as it once was, "swing outs" are a bit slower, and transitioning is now much more predictable. It now gets approx. 37 - 39 degrees angle, and now consistently does it in a wide range of motor speeds. What I "believe" I did was stumble upon a general baseline to make fine adjustments from, considering how "friendly" it now seems, compared to what it was!

I appreciate everything everyone has contributed, and I think I now can "eke out" some more angle, with a few small adjustments.

Thanks to everyone for the help! :)

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby tatmanfish » Sun May 26, 2013 9:13 pm

Cool. Its just a matter od getting a feel for it and throwing out all you know about 50/50. Small tweaks to the setup and youll beright where you want to be.

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby Fitto » Mon May 27, 2013 12:06 am

if you want drive with cs (and hold some angle), you need to think a little different. You cant drive like with 50/50, just holding 100% power, or just 100% brake....first CS driving lesson is DRIVE SMooTHLY. (slowly accelerate, slowly brake, use all track). Dont try hold fuul lock, but catch steering angle wich can hold your setup...

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Mon May 27, 2013 5:46 pm

tatmanfish wrote:Cool. Its just a matter od getting a feel for it and throwing out all you know about 50/50. Small tweaks to the setup and youll beright where you want to be.


Weeellll...........I can't throw it entirely out, as I still have a few 50/50 drift chassis that I will most likely never be able to CS (no option parts availability in that area), but I know what you mean. :)

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby ToraKitsune » Mon May 27, 2013 5:50 pm

Fitto wrote:if you want drive with cs (and hold some angle), you need to think a little different. You cant drive like with 50/50, just holding 100% power, or just 100% brake....first CS driving lesson is DRIVE SMooTHLY. (slowly accelerate, slowly brake, use all track). Dont try hold fuul lock, but catch steering angle wich can hold your setup...


Oh, yeah, I'll be spending the spring and summer practicing! :) At least the biggest hurdle is gone, so I will now be making small adjustments and testing tire compounds. There aren't many places around here to do that, but what there is (a nice big, smooth asphalt parking lot that's empty on weekends!) will be seeing a lot of me! :)

Thanks for the tips!

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Re: Got the CS kit installed...Now how do I get more drift angle

Postby HAYASHI » Tue May 28, 2013 4:23 am

Have you tried 0 toe in the front or slightly + toe ?
My VDF was slightly toed in after a rushed adjustment and once i set it back to 0 or slightly + toe i felt an improvement.
I'm running mine with softer suspension in the front than the rear and finds it helps with weight shift
I have found the VDF a hard car to set up and drive,Im waiting on a new chassis to be released and i will be retiring it
http://dangerstylerc.blogspot.com.au/


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