Why so much camber/caster?

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Why so much camber/caster?

Postby nickvig » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:15 pm

The one thing I can't quite grasp about CS setups is the INSANE amount of camber and caster everyone is running. According to what I've read, this makes the car more stable in turns, which is the absolute opposite of what it should do to the handling of the car. Touring cars usually run 1-3 degrees of camber in order to make the inside tire have more surface area as the suspension compresses which leads to a little better turn-in. Running 6-7 degrees of camber and losing almost 85% of the surface area of the tire to make the car more stable doesn't make sense to me. And adding 7 degrees of caster even further reduces the surface area of the tire when the wheels are turned, so based on pure physics I'd say this would also make the car less stable. Is to compensate for the overdrive of the front versus rear wheels? Can anyone explain why it works this way? Is it just to get the 'demon camber' look and not really doing anything as far as the handling of the car? I know a lot of guys were running crazy camber to tuck 7mm and 9mm offset wheels on 190 size bodies, so I thought it might just be a result of that, but
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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby Calzone » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:51 am

The caster makes the car steer in better, the camber makes the wheel go more flat in a turn which gives some more grip, and thus more oversteer.

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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby nickvig » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:55 am

Calzone wrote:The caster makes the car steer in better, the camber makes the wheel go more flat in a turn which gives some more grip, and thus more oversteer.


I understand the physics of camber, but what you're saying doesn't make sense. At 1-3 degrees, yes, the tire would be more flat in a turn and the inside wheel would have more surface area. But when using 6-7 degrees of camber you've reduced the tire surface are down to almost nothing and the cars don't have enough body roll to absorb 6-7 degrees of negative camber. There isn't enough ride height or suspension travel to get the tire where you have more surface area in a turn at 6-7 degrees of camber versus 1-3 degrees. This is why it doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby oski83 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:51 am

This topic was brought up previously by another member...check out his thread.... :up:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=283

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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby tokeyo83 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:49 pm

nickvig wrote:I understand the physics of camber, but what you're saying doesn't make sense. At 1-3 degrees, yes, the tire would be more flat in a turn and the inside wheel would have more surface area. But when using 6-7 degrees of camber you've reduced the tire surface are down to almost nothing and the cars don't have enough body roll to absorb 6-7 degrees of negative camber. There isn't enough ride height or suspension travel to get the tire where you have more surface area in a turn at 6-7 degrees of camber versus 1-3 degrees. This is why it doesn't make sense to me.



hey nick :wave: i'm running 8mm's of kick-up and 6deg caster blocks with -10deg of camber (all around :twisted: ) and at full lock i get full tire contact (inside wheel :?: ) i really don't get it either i just did it just to get the sick lay down of the outer wheel when turned, and it just felt better and held more counter that way. i guess with more caster too it makes the car more stable.

used this guide for 50/50 and some for cs:
http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/tc/print.htm

Calzone wrote:The caster makes the car steer in better, the camber makes the wheel go more flat in a turn which gives some more grip, and thus more oversteer.


+1 doesn't make sense
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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby PS13Boy » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:04 pm

The area of tyre on the ground doesn't make much if any difference to grip.
Only weight and coeefficient of traction/friction come into it.
Traction = coefficient of friction x Weight

My theory is that the extreme camber and reduced contact patch gives you a more direct/accurate feel in the steering.
The grip is much the same (as above), but the contact patch is much narrower and closer to the steering's axis of rotation, so the steering feels more precise/direct.

I've found -4, -5 camber on my 50/50 cars works pretty well too.
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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby Calzone » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:25 am

tokeyo83 wrote:
Calzone wrote:The caster makes the car steer in better, the camber makes the wheel go more flat in a turn which gives some more grip, and thus more oversteer.


+1 doesn't make sense


Can you tell me why it doesn't make sense? If you have a bike, look at the front. You'll notice that your bike has caster too. Why? Well, when cornering you're most likely to get an angle when leaning in. That caster is there for a better steering in corners.

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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby tokeyo83 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:07 pm

Moved the topic into gerneral discussion, wasn't really a full-setup ;)



Calzone wrote:
tokeyo83 wrote:
Calzone wrote:The caster makes the car steer in better, the camber makes the wheel go more flat in a turn which gives some more grip, and thus more oversteer.


+1 doesn't make sense


Can you tell me why it doesn't make sense? If you have a bike, look at the front. You'll notice that your bike has caster too. Why? Well, when cornering you're most likely to get an angle when leaning in. That caster is there for a better steering in corners.


why would gaining more front grip give you more oversteer? it would, maybe, give more snap oversteer.
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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby Calzone » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:54 am

tokeyo83 wrote:Moved the topic into gerneral discussion, wasn't really a full-setup ;)



Calzone wrote:
Can you tell me why it doesn't make sense? If you have a bike, look at the front. You'll notice that your bike has caster too. Why? Well, when cornering you're most likely to get an angle when leaning in. That caster is there for a better steering in corners.


why would gaining more front grip give you more oversteer? it would, maybe, give more snap oversteer.


Because on RC's the front wheels will always slide a bit, and if it has more grip, it also has more resistance when sliding, that way, your rear will "overtake" your front. This will help especially in transitions and tight corners.

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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby tokeyo83 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:15 pm

Calzone wrote:Because on RC's the front wheels will always slide a bit, and if it has more grip, it also has more resistance when sliding, that way, your rear will "overtake" your front. This will help especially in transitions and tight corners.


the reason your rear would want to take over the front is because of the under/overdirve ratio.
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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby nickvig » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:44 pm

I really wasn't sure where to post it, thanks for moving it, Ulys. Hi, BTW. :wave:

I've been doing some research /analysis on this. The camber and caster are almost inversely related. I don't know the exact figures, but the caster will negate the effect of the camber on the inside wheel, resulting in a flatter surface of tire e.g. with 6 degrees of camber and 6 degrees of caster you end up with the inside wheel having a sum 0 camber at full lock. The other aspect of this is that the outside wheel will now have more camber and less surface area. So this kind of setup may help with the 'countersteer' look requiring you to have the wheels fully locked depending on the turn in order to keep the inside tire with the greatest amount of surface area to retain grip and control. At this point I'm guessing the lack of traction on the outside wheel helps the effect and 'look' of the turn.

So my deduction is that the idea is to get the cool 'demon camber' look and tuck large offset wheels in the front with a lot of negative camber. This, in-effect, requires a similar large amount of caster in order to retain tire surface area for the inside wheel.

What I'd like to try is a zero camber / zero caster setup to see how it handles, the point being that the inside and outside wheel would always have full tire contact. Also to see if the car actually will work better with less grip on the outside wheel in say a 6 degree negative camber and 6 degree caster block setup, where the outside wheel has say, 25% tire surface area at full lock and the inside wheel has 100% surface area at full lock.

Confused yet? :wtf:
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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby tokeyo83 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:57 pm

nickvig wrote:I really wasn't sure where to post it, thanks for moving it, Ulys. Hi, BTW. :wave:

I've been doing some research /analysis on this. The camber and caster are almost inversely related. I don't know the exact figures, but the caster will negate the effect of the camber on the inside wheel, resulting in a flatter surface of tire e.g. with 6 degrees of camber and 6 degrees of caster you end up with the inside wheel having a sum 0 camber at full lock. The other aspect of this is that the outside wheel will now have more camber and less surface area. So this kind of setup may help with the 'countersteer' look requiring you to have the wheels fully locked depending on the turn in order to keep the inside tire with the greatest amount of surface area to retain grip and control. At this point I'm guessing the lack of traction on the outside wheel helps the effect and 'look' of the turn.

So my deduction is that the idea is to get the cool 'demon camber' look and tuck large offset wheels in the front with a lot of negative camber. This, in-effect, requires a similar large amount of caster in order to retain tire surface area for the inside wheel.

What I'd like to try is a zero camber / zero caster setup to see how it handles, the point being that the inside and outside wheel would always have full tire contact. Also to see if the car actually will work better with less grip on the outside wheel in say a 6 degree negative camber and 6 degree caster block setup, where the outside wheel has say, 25% tire surface area at full lock and the inside wheel has 100% surface area at full lock.

Confused yet? :wtf:


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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby DorkyMK3 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:58 pm

nickvig wrote:I really wasn't sure where to post it, thanks for moving it, Ulys. Hi, BTW. :wave:

I've been doing some research /analysis on this. The camber and caster are almost inversely related. I don't know the exact figures, but the caster will negate the effect of the camber on the inside wheel, resulting in a flatter surface of tire e.g. with 6 degrees of camber and 6 degrees of caster you end up with the inside wheel having a sum 0 camber at full lock. The other aspect of this is that the outside wheel will now have more camber and less surface area. So this kind of setup may help with the 'countersteer' look requiring you to have the wheels fully locked depending on the turn in order to keep the inside tire with the greatest amount of surface area to retain grip and control. At this point I'm guessing the lack of traction on the outside wheel helps the effect and 'look' of the turn.

So my deduction is that the idea is to get the cool 'demon camber' look and tuck large offset wheels in the front with a lot of negative camber. This, in-effect, requires a similar large amount of caster in order to retain tire surface area for the inside wheel.

What I'd like to try is a zero camber / zero caster setup to see how it handles, the point being that the inside and outside wheel would always have full tire contact. Also to see if the car actually will work better with less grip on the outside wheel in say a 6 degree negative camber and 6 degree caster block setup, where the outside wheel has say, 25% tire surface area at full lock and the inside wheel has 100% surface area at full lock.

Confused yet? :wtf:


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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby Valiant_012 » Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:01 am

[quote] I really wasn't sure where to post it, thanks for moving it, Ulys. Hi, BTW. :wave:

I've been doing some research /analysis on this. The camber and caster are almost inversely related. I don't know the exact figures, but the caster will negate the effect of the camber on the inside wheel, resulting in a flatter surface of tire e.g. with 6 degrees of camber and 6 degrees of caster you end up with the inside wheel having a sum 0 camber at full lock. The other aspect of this is that the outside wheel will now have more camber and less surface area. So this kind of setup may help with the 'countersteer' look requiring you to have the wheels fully locked depending on the turn in order to keep the inside tire with the greatest amount of surface area to retain grip and control. At this point I'm guessing the lack of traction on the outside wheel helps the effect and 'look' of the turn.

So my deduction is that the idea is to get the cool 'demon camber' look and tuck large offset wheels in the front with a lot of negative camber. This, in-effect, requires a similar large amount of caster in order to retain tire surface area for the inside wheel.



Nicely put.
I'd like to stir things up a bit more too...
I think that the big front camber is like you said, for show and to help fit deeper front wheels. But. I also think it helps to dull off the steering response along with the firmed up front suspension.
Do you think that the increased inside tyre contact patch helps to increase the length of the drift by helping to pull the front alongwhile the rear is "hanging out"?
Another thing I am curious about is whether the large castor angles people are using are intentional or a byproduct of lots of front kick up being used to shift weight into the front suspension under brakes?
What do you people think?

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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby Calzone » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:53 am

To be honest, and don't blame me if i'm wrong, i get the feeling that most people just add that caster and camber because other people with the same chassis have it too. Atleast, thats what i did :Silent: :lol:

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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby waider » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:39 pm

I know someone that runs 0 camber/caster all around (with a classic TA05 on Tdrifts and an Active Hobby V2 CS kit) and do well with it!

Personally I run the maximum camber possible in front (don't have a camber gauge) and around 0° on the rear.
As for the caster I need to purchase some C hubs before, but wondering where to get them.
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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby Calzone » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:01 pm

What chassis are you running Waider?

EDIT: I see, TA05. I've bought myself a set of TRF414M C hubs from rcmart. They haven't arrived yet, but they looked the same as the TA05 ones, but have 4 degrees of caster.

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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby waider » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:29 pm

Ok, thanks for the tips Calzone! Gonna check those.
As for my chassis I'll introduce it on the appropriate section ASAP.

I wonder if those would fit?

http://www.super-rc.com/product_info.ph ... cts_id=401
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Re: Why so much camber/caster?

Postby Calzone » Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:29 am

I'm not sure if that would fit. The mounting is the same, though. I just took the TRF414M's because they are the same shape as the 05's. But if you're not affraid of buying something that could be wrong you could always try it :)


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